Date: June 4, 2012 Facilitator: Denise O'Brien Chapter 4: RtI Procedures in Elementary Mathematics Next Facilitator: Annette Weise Next Discussion: July 2, 2012 9:30am Central Time
1. Accelerated Math, Success Maker Math, and Math Media are three computer-based curricula discussed in Chapter 4. How familiar are you with these programs?
Janet looked at the components of these programs online.
Worried about how these programs provide re-teaching if they do at all.
Math Media and Success Math Maker did have re-teaching components.
Lori was surprised that Accelerated Math was on here because of Accelerated Reading information in RtI. Interested in checking it out.
We were surprised the authors did not use these programs in their case studies in the book. Curious as to why this was.
The first programs the book discussed deal with automaticity- can use computer programs for these purposes.
Fidelity important with computer-based programs.
Deb W. has used Success Maker for several years. Fidelity part the hardest. Once a teacher got students on the computer program, the teacher thought they were done. Reports gave good information on student success.
Each program has progress monitoring component.
Limitations- not a lot out there. The programs typically practice on skills.
Issue becomes is that the focus that the student needs?
Computer helps with record keeping. If teacher is not monitoring, they will not get skills that they need.
These three computer-based tools have been around the longest and have company power behind them.
What will happen with budget cuts in schools? Will they have these resources in the future?
2. Recommendations for computer-based curricula?
IXL math K-2 supplement and as an intervention. Available for all students. Accelerate for students doing well, struggling students get reinforcement. Not sure about on track and below track students. Have detailed performance reports and students set goals. IXL Learning ixl.com. $199.00 can get group buy ($4,500 for one ESU 4 school district)
Ascend Math
Aha Math- K-5 has universal screener, place students into the area that they need to be working through. Computer based
Good idea to send these programs to Erika and see her thoughts. Suzanne is taking care of this.
3. Are any of your schools using DIBELS Math?
ESU 7 has some using it (4 or 5 more districts next fall)
Benchmarks won’t be out until next year
Easy CBM does have some norms
ESU 16 has schools using AIMSweb, several schools have dropped it and the math component (cost a factor, issues with customer service)
4. Case Study about Thomas on pages 92-102. Are typical elementary classroom teachers prepared to identify the knowledge and skills students are lacking in mathematics? Are they prepared to administer Tier 2 interventions? (Pg. 94-95)
Instruction at Tier I, teachers know that students don’t know the facts but may not know the why. Not sure they know more about what to do about the concept behind those lacking skills.
If issues are not addressed early in the math career of that student, it affects later math skill development.
Agree that number sense is something that all students need to have. Evident if there is a lack of number sense but difficult to find out why.
Early numeracy assessments can be given to students at the Pre K and K level. Find out what students are lacking in skills can be pretty evident from these assessments.
These interventions (in book) looked more like guided math; differentiated instruction
In reading we rely on Title I teachers for interventions. In this book, it doesn’t refer to using Title I teachers. Is it because we have been so focused on reading? Not many math school improvement goals in the past.
Title I heavily focused on Reading; typically Title I teachers have reading background and not math background
Title I services are based on district to district needs.
Tier I critical for good instruction- if don’t have it have many students will be placed in interventions; this makes it difficult for small schools to provide services
Help teachers learn how to differentiate between what is quality instruction and research-based tools to help them.
Math Academies- did 5-12 and elementary academy plan together?
Not to a great extent
One of the focuses this year is STEM
As far as scaffolding no
One ESU 3 district has started with RtI Math instead of RtI Reading
Envision Math
Intervention and enrichment activities
NWEA assessments
Trying to use all of the curriculum components before adding any additional supports
Intervention/extension time planned in the school day
ESU 7 has a district as well
5. In many school districts, paraprofessionals are administering Tier 2 interventions. What is your experience with para’s and intervention?
More concerning for para’s working with students in math than reading; para may not have the expertise in math; easier to gain expertise in reading
Have the programs in reading but not in math
Sitting by students in computer based programs maybe ok but how about in the instructional components?
Offer training for paras in the mentorship of paras?
Para’s serving multiple roles lunch room, etc. / not too many doing interventions; see them more as a support to individual students
If our certified teachers are struggling with the math content, how do we expect the para’s to deliver these Tier 2 instructional supports? They do not have strategies in their tool kit but can help with extra practice
NSSI project- data about impact of explicit instruction? Using math coaches to be mini instructors; no info right now
Sped Paras have LETTERS- have a Para reading book; great in future to have something with math (funding issue)
Need to be certified in mathematics to give the grade; quality instruction; para can support the practice
6. Do software-based programs “take teachers out of the equation”?
It shouldn’t take the teacher out of the equation; teacher still needs to walk around, look around, talk around
A lot of these programs have progress monitoring tools and reports
Advantage- rewindable learning similar to using videos; kids can continue to use it over and over again
Teachers need to analyze the data
7. Are students more or less focused during software-based instruction?
Kids more motivated using computer
8. What is a mathematical “choke point”? What can teachers/schools do to help students move past their “choking point”?
Time and resources needed; need to network so they can build their tool box and be able to do what is instructionally sound.
Fidelity= doing it right as many times as possible.
Teachers complain that they don’t have the time for creativity in their classroom. If they learn the skills early on, then they will gain time later on.
What is causing the hitch? Why can’t kids get through it?
Diagnostic - what is there for math?
So we can detect the initial problems to help kids get additional support .
In reading they can identify early, don’t have that in math yet. It would be nice to be able to anticipate these skill issues so we could prevent the choking point. Has to be discouraging for kids to get to that choking point.
Skills Pointer- NWEA
Janet watched a webinar; pick out or identify the statements in the RIT band that students could demonstrate; looks like it can be a quality tool in helping identifying skills/lack of skills.
Curriculum alignment- do schools have a quality curriculum in place;
Core program makes a huge difference-
Do like some of the information that the NWEA MAP assessment provides. Not many schools using it K-1
9. Are schools in your ESUs combining SAT and RtI Teams into one or keeping them separate? Do you see a movement to combine them? Are schools moving toward utilizing RtI for Special Education Verification?
ESU 4 far down the road;
ESU 16 as well;
ESU 3 as well; one district has submitted the plan to verify as SLD; others not really considering at this point
ESU 7 staff development and sped at a stand still- strong presence of RtI in reading; problem of semantics
ESU 10 working on problem solving guide for school districts
Other thoughts:
Keep in mind that reading and math are different; process is still the same;
aha is that reading seems easier because we have the checkpoints
Need to look more at diagnostics;
Error analysis is important
Plus is that the authors continue to suggest that the extra supports are outside of the regular math instruction block
Where do we find the time?
Approach is good- more time and smaller groups
Date: May 1, 2012 Facilitator: Denise O'Brien (Questions provided by Deb Paulman) Chapter 3 Procedures for Number Sense and Early Mathematics Skills Next Facilitator: Denise O'Brien Next Discussion: June 4, 2012 9:30am Central Time via Distance Learning
Discussion Questions
1. There is LOTS of discussion about the differences between Reading and Math relative to the RtI process. What are the similarities and differences in RtI for Reading and Mathematics?
Similarities: Three Tiered system, intervening early, all students receive Tier 1 instruction, screening process, Tier 2 interventions are typically anywhere from 2-5 days per week (20-30 minutes long), Tier 3 more intense, maintain core class, progress monitoring
Differences: Percentages far different in math (i.e. Tier 1 80% goal; closer to 50% in math in regards to core curriculum meeting the needs of all students) interventions not as well developed in math, more difficult to identify a universal screener, MAP fall?
NWEA MAP will be rated in regards to a universal screener; Skills Pointer more of a diagnostic- scaffolding; Math for Primary main difference is it is given orally, it would be great if we could assign assessments better
Math support staff is lacking compared to reading; when reading started maybe in the same boat; now have reading coaches
2. It might be worth the time for the group to collaboratively define number sense, particularly if it is seen as the indicator of later success in mathematics.
Neuroscience vs. Mathematics Educators Kids are born hardwired- basic numeration and math skills, math have isolated where math skills happen; Does it make a difference the experiences of a child? According to the text it can. Lenny shows the grandkids where math is in everyday, McDonalds- How much does it cost? Speed limit signs All parents realize the importance of reading to kids but not counting objects etc. Number sense- as students get older the definition gets broader; it is hard to define it but teachers know when students don’t have it. Both basic numeration and early mathematics skills are included in the research as indicators of number sense.
3. How do the screeners/progress monitoring tools that we have talked about in previous discussions reflect the Mathematics Readiness Skills found in Table 3.2? (This may be more of a researchable as opposed to a discussable question.)
Hopefully Erika can give us more information on this Still in limbo NWEA? Chapter 4
4. Is anyone familiar with any of the Mathematics curricula mentioned (Early Learning in Mathematics, Number Worlds, Math Recovery). What can you share regarding these programs?
Not familiar with these programs; Envision, Saxon, Everyday math, Math Expressions (Lincoln and Omaha)
Math Expressions and Saxon have more research about them than the others
5. Bender suggests that computerized interventions are going to be important for Tier 3 interventions (p. 80-83). What computerized mathematics readiness and early mathematics curriculum are “out there” and available to schools?
IXL Math, Ascend Math, Accelerated Math, A Plus, Aleks- Spanish and English (Kathy liked this for middle school students) adaptive in the beginning; pre-assessment 15% of items correct in the level- stay at that level; used for enrichment and remediation, $35-$40 per student student license Do the Math- Marilyn Burns intervention (not computer based) ESU 3 has some districts that are using this Foundational skills Tiered to help build foundational skills SAMS- Millard uses for reading and math PALS Math- Kathy has it and has previewed it; partners up the kids and provides structures for them to work together
V-Math (voyager) addresses motivational issues; games and competitions
6. How do documents for tracking student progression in RtI reading compare to the form suggested by Bender p. 68 (competed form p. 71-75) for mathematics?
Reading documentation varies by school district; school districts can create their own documentation forms; all unique to the school district Some interventions have their own documentation sheets DIBELS booklets- something like this for math would be great; information plus graphs Form may be cumbersome for classroom teachers if completing for many students; checklist may be more useful intervention logs
7. Chapter 3 mentions multiple ways to ensure instructional fidelity (p78-79). How can instructional fidelity be determined? How is it determined in Reading RtI?
Core instruction- comfort level of the text/program; College prep not a lot of math instruction ESU 3 pilot project using Envision Math with 2 districts; communication piece important Who is doing the professional development? Suggestion to let them teach from new materials for a couple of months then introduce the new features Saxon does not have online support that some of the other programs have; nice to have the online support aligned to what you are doing
Is math as prescribed as reading? Saxon math is; Everyday Math a mixture of direct instruction and inquiry Not as scripted About comfort level- let them become more with math; if not comfortable it will become more about memorization; then can’t adapt Professional development- if teachers knew how to teach it would make a huge difference Instructional concerns; are you engaging kids; using formative assessment
8. The Reading RtI process has seemed fairly rigid (to me). Chapter 3 discusses flexibility in the Math RtI process (i.e. student movement between Tiers 1-3). How important is flexibility in the RtI process?
Fidelity- when you have too much flexibility you can lose fidelity; balance is important Not just a gut feeling; need data and documentation to back it up; decision rules established PLCs teachers getting together; important component of professional development of teachers Fellow teacher says it- more likely the other teacher will implement change Smaller schools may struggle with this more; collaborate across grade levels 8 Essential Elements for Reading- ESU 4 has created a checklist for schools to help give them guidance in Reading; can be adapted for math (Suzanne will share) Carol read papers from Math grant and found them heartwarming; Lenny’s efforts are to be commended; these teachers have a network and will stay connected Elementary math teachers not is tightly grouped- need to work on creating this network Elementary teachers not as isolated; many of the high schools they may be the only math teacher Schools are not providing the time for teachers to meet and network; need leaders that say this is important; can the ESU lens help support and push this initiative; never build collective expertise in your buildings without making time for the conversations. Goes back to fidelity- depends on administration (need to be in the classroom) Envision created a one page cheat sheet to see implementation (Debbie has this)
9. General education teachers will implement Tier 1 and 2 instruction. Bender, suggests that Tier 3 interventions will require some type of additional support…mathematics coach, computerized instruction…How do you see Nebraska schools managing this additional support?
10. What is the role of RtI in diagnosing a learning disability?
Date: April 5, 2012 Facilitator: Lori Poppe, Facilitator Discussion: Chapter 2 - Tier 1 Mathematics Instruction: A Critical Component of RTI Next Facilitator: Deb Paulman Next Date: May 1, 2012; Face-to-Face during/after SDA in Kearney - Location TBD
Next Discussion: Chapter 3 - RTI Procedures for Number Sense and Early Mathematics Skills
Note: This document is also available as a share document in Google Docs.
Denise:Well, we get Friday off...I hope you all do too!
Deb Paulman:Hey there
Deb Paulman:We are getting our illustrious leader connected...her computer is arguing with her
Deb Wragge:Us, too Yahoo!!!!
Deb Paulman:Good morning, All! My computer is not cooperating so I'm using Deb's right now. Here we go!
Deb Wragge:Lots of meat in this chapter, huh?
Deb Paulman:What are your thoughts regarding the 2008 NMAP's report suggesting the employment of specialized Math instructors for elem. classroom instruction?
Denise:I think that is ideal but financially I don't think our districts can pull it off.
Deb Wragge:I believe it is a direction math instruction needs to go, yet I am concerned about districts dedicating the dollars to "another" content specialist in the elem "World." Not a traditional take even though REading has found some success.
Denise:Have any of your schools had their middle school and/or high school math content specialists work with elementary teachers?
Lenny VerMaas: I think that you may see more departmentalization of mathematics a lower grades.
Deb Wragge:None in ESU 7
Kate:Not that I know of. I think the elementary teachers are afraid to ask for assistance.
Deb Paulman:It's interesting in comparison to Reading Coaches...as they usually provide more of the interventions and less classroom instruction. How about your schools?
Deb Wragge:My first teaching position as a 3rd grade teacher had Rdg and Math instruction with each of the two track building taking each one content. I really liked that!
JaLena:One of ESU 8 districts has a Math Coach from the MS/HS level.
Deb Wragge:madison?
Kate:Does the coach come in an co-teach or does the coach work with the teachers during planning?
JaLena:He has taught a class, worked with grade level teachers, and been a curriculum resource.
Deb Romanek:UNL program is preparing teachers but I am afraid I agree with Denise that our state is not willing to pay for the expertise. I see several coaches applying for out of state positions.
Lenny VerMaas:Having an elementary teacher that enjoys helping students learn mathematics would be a good start rather than having someone from the high school come down. I do know that Lincoln has a math coach at some levels.
Deb Paulman:I think it's set up differently at each school for Reading. Most of our small schools are not blessed with Reading coaches...
JaLena:Is there such a program in any of our colleges that particularly relates to curriculum coaching??
Deb Wragge:So, does PD such as NMPDS at both levels become a NE Answer as coaches. Yet, how do we encourage those participants they have those skills and content knowledge?
Deb Romanek:No college program that I am aware of.
Denise:In what elementary grade do the majority of your schools start departmentalizing in math?
Deb Paulman:UNL is doing their research projects regarding Nebraska rural schools gettting distance learning from instructional coaches in Reading and Science...Project Readers for Reading and CSI for Science.
Deb Paulman:I will put the website up for Project Readers on our wikki.
Kate:Departmentalizing isn't consistent either. Some of mine start in grades 4, some in 5/6.
Deb Wragge:It depends on the population as to when departmentalization begins. Most not until upper elementary or into MS
Deb Paulman:Some of mine start in third grade and up.
Deb Wragge:My experience was at 3rd
Denise:I think finding the right teachers with a positive "math mindset" is key to quality math instruction. Maybe by departmentalizing earlier there would be some better results? Just a thought.. any research on this??
Lenny VerMaas:I am not aware of a program or endorsement. It would seem that gaining a wide range of background and strategies.
Deb Paulman:WHAT TEXTBOOK SELECTION MATERIALS DO YOU USE TO HELP YOUR ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS CHOOSE NEW MATH MATERIALS SO THEY ARE BOTH TEACHER-DIRECTED EXPLICIT INSTRUCTION AND INQUIRY-BASED?
Deb Wragge:The UNL Primary Math Class... does that offer a possible avenue to coaches.... or most of those being grown for LPS?
Kate:Are any of your elementary schools implementing RtI for math?
Lenny VerMaas:My window to display the chat is limited. Is there a way to increase the size.
Deb Wragge:none in 7
Denise:None that I know of in 10
Lenny VerMaas:none that I know of in 6
Deb Paulman:LENNY, WE ARE WORKING ON IT...HAVING TECH. DIFFICULTIES...SORRY!
Deb Wragge:Resently I had 3 Title I teachers in to revise the Needs Assessment for TArgeted Schools.
Deb Wragge:They are the nearest ESU 7 has to any assistance in Math
Denise:Lenny, I thought the inquiry vs. direct instruction was interesting. Do math books typically include both?
Deb Romanek:The work for RTI has been focused on reading with the UNL Consortuim.
Deb Wragge:But, I took them to the EasyCBM site and walked them through it. There are Norms now available. Available since October 2011. They were excited!
Kate:Deb-are they planning to move to math, do you know?
Lenny VerMaas: I have not had a lot work with K-4 teachers and programs so don't know the set up of the textbooks. My wife taught 2nd grade wo that helps.
Deb Wragge:NO... Are too busy seating Reading... I am told from Barb F. who is working with our school in the UNL Consortium
Deb Paulman:WHAT DID EVERYONE THINK OF THE EASYCBM SITE...K-8 ASSESSMENTS, SCORING, DATA ENTRY, REPORTS, ETC.?
Deb Romanek:There has not been any discussion at this time but need to visit with the group. KEEPING IN MIND -- MATH IS DIFFERENT THAN READING
Deb Wragge:Well, people.... That is why this group has formed. The NE focus is on rdg, and it has to broaden.
Deb Wragge:Yes! Math is different!
Lenny VerMaas:There is also the difference between developing automaticity and the understanding of mathematics and it s concepts.
Deb Wragge:I am in the throws of preparing a training on writing in math using marilyn Burns' book. Lenny, she says the VERY same thin you just did! Yeah you!!!
Deb Wragge:thing
Deb Paulman:I know one complaint of elem. teachers & Math cores, is that many of them do not provide enough built in practice and review.
Denise:What are some first steps in helping elementary teachers with math instruction? I know we had some participate in the elementary math grant but that is all ESU 10 has offered in the past 3 years.
JaLena:math is a content area in which supplements are a necessity
JaLena:math instruction or math knowledge......can't have one without the other?
Lenny VerMaas:My knowledge of RTI is very limited and only what I have picked up from Jen with reading. I do like the emphasis on mathetics and using data.
Deb Wragge:Knowing the why of math is far important. Yes they need automoticity, but that often gets in the way of application in the real world... I beleive that is one way we lose students... bogged down in the rote.
Denise:Agreed! I only have experience from having a 1st and a 3rd grader this year. Wow there are a lot of worksheets for math! Timed math facts..etc.
Lenny VerMaas:Students need to have both and in some ways they are indpendent and separate from each other. They both need to built, developed and nutured.
Deb Wragge:That is where the screener (univerasl) and progress monitoring offers the window into student achievement. I also believe journaling or logging by students of their understanding is an importandt piece
Deb Romanek:Practice is good but doing it with different representations of a concept by ALL elementary teachers in the Tier I would limit the number of students needing interventions at any level.
Deb Paulman:THE BOOK SUGGESTED THAT EVERYDAY MATHEMATICS BY WRIGHT GROUP/MCGRAW-HILL HAS ADEQUATE OVERALL RESEARCH SUPPORT? YOUR THOUGHTS OR EXPERIENCES WITH THIS CORE?
Deb Wragge:Deb... I agree with you. I was interested to Learn that Everyday Math was the only truly research-based series
JaLena:Everyday Math, from my experience, is labor intensive, but produces results if the teacher is dedicated. However, supplements will also be needed.
Lenny VerMaas:Getting good core instruction to reduce the number of students going into tier 2
Denise:Grand Island Public uses it. My dear friend Marcia, thought it had pros and cons. Pros students were better at problem solving, cons students were lacking basic facts
Deb Wragge:I have a couple districts selected series for nxt fall implementation. Everyday was a part of their series looks, but both choose Saxon for the spiral practice.
Kate:Quite a few of my districts use Saxon for the spiral practice as well.
Deb Paulman:FYI: DEB PAULMAN IS REALLY LORI POPPE...COMPUTER PROBLEMS...
Lenny VerMaas:The ability to talk about math and have students explain thier thinking is so important.
Kate:I haven't had a chance to look at the EasyCBM site. Deb-what did you think?
Deb Paulman:HOW DO THE 10 EXPLICIT TACTICS DESCRIBED IN THE BOOK COMPARE WITH JALENA'S MATH PARTNERSHIP PROJECT?
guest:Tri County had Everyday math and they found the same pros and cons that Denise mentioned. They also found that over time, as staff turned over, they had great difficulty in keeping them trained in the program - and that is very important as it is taught differently. (This is Annette Weise, by the way - I was the only one who took the direction to log in as guest literally - sorry).
Deb Wragge:Teacher in elem are experiencing direct instruction in reading and seeing results slowly.... I don't think the group wants to be tied down to direct instruction because they are not sure how much fredom of instruction they want to relinquish again. Yet, they want help????
Denise:Tell me more about your project Jalena...
Deb Wragge:Love these changes in size... a real mathematical problem in action~!!! :-)
guest:Tri County chose new math for this year and went with Saxon as well. They are much happier - but it doesn't do as good of a job with problem solving - they are trying to supplement that.
Deb Romanek:Everyday math is solid but as pointed out the program must be done as designed which requires professional development for the entire staff and when new teachers come on board. It is easier to supplement basic fact practice than problem solving.
Deb Wragge:See that is where I see the 10 tactics coming into play. Basically, there is going to have to be PD in Math instruction.... AND district are GOING to have to send their people!
Lenny VerMaas:The spiral review of Saxon is an easy answer. Teachers comfortable with math make it better. Teachers not comfortable with math still teach memorization rather than understanding.
JaLena:The elementary project focuses on content knowledge, content understanding and content application. Participants network and develop effective classroom strategies for their grade levels.
Lori Poppe:We have this PD problem in Reading once schools adopt a new core. Many companies send a salesperson instead of a TRAINER to do PD for new cores.
Deb Paulman:Just keep your eye on the moving chat window!
Deb Wragge:That is where the Writing in Math of Marilyn Burns comes in as far is teacher and student depth of understanding.
Denise:JaLena, is this project just with schools in your area?
Lori Poppe:Jalena, what do you think of the 10 tactics from the book?
Deb Wragge:Right Lori... companies DON'T send the right person... and district don't as the ESU to sit in on the train to learn so further support and relationships of support can take place.
Deb Wragge:There job is to sell... not support
JaLena:The project is at 4 sites across the state. Participants choose their preferred site. All sites receive the same opportunities from Neal and Elliott.
Deb Wragge:ask the ESUs
Deb Wragge:Is this beyond the Elem Academy?
Lori Poppe:I did do a joint RtI/Reading Street core training for a school with a trainer from the company by request of the principal. It went really well. I made sure the trainer presented on items I knew the teachers needed to move further with RtI, etc.
JaLena:I was familiar with the 10 tactics. I had used several in my upper elementary classes.
JaLena:Using a variety is great....because upper elementary students need variety, but clarity.
JaLena:Differentiation is vital to success for all students. If RTI is to be success, in any content area, teachers must be able to differentiate. This is my opinion.
Lenny VerMaas:Chapter two confirmed that RTI is about good teaching and getting good core instruction. Provide variety of strategies, movement, etc.
Deb Romanek:The 10 tactics are good listing and the Family math nights were promoted during the Elementary Academy last year.
Lori Poppe:For Reading RtI I have had to really dig into their new cores to find the components teachers need as some companies do not point out important elements like instructional routines!
Deb Wragge:Lenny, I was pleased to see in the 10 Tactics many of the them had been introed to the MS/HS NMPDS participants
Deb Paulman:I have to say I was kind of disappointed with the 10 tactics. They seem very vague and about as far removed from direct instruction as can get. They are examples of good instruction/lesson design. Not very helpful in terms of targeting individual student understanding of math content
Deb Romanek:The tactics also reinrforce the instructional strategies that work for all content that teachers need more support in math.
Lenny VerMaas:The importance of vocabulary was a nice emphasis with the vocbaulary cards. Also the value of choice and student ownership of learning.
guest:Yes, the fact that companies don't have great trainers is exactly the issue Tri County ran into - they couldn't get trainers to come in to work with their new staff and new staff cannot implement Everyday Math without proper training. Not due to lack of effort for training staff, but rather a lack of proper trainers -their program imploded.
Lori Poppe:I was surprised with the 10 tactics but that may be because my former district used Saxon Math.
Deb Wragge:In the ESU 7 Title I Coop we have districts who specifically target Parent Nights more toward the math than reading.
Deb Paulman:reading seems very targeted and specific in their instructional interventions...that's where the 10 tactics felt fairly vague and general
JaLena:As with any curriculum, Saxon needs supplements or enhancements. This is not to say that it is weak....
Lori Poppe:I'm sure Math with be very similar to Reading when it comes to matching student skill deficiets to interventions. Using the universal screener and matching those skills to specific interventions is the key.
Deb Wragge:Imploding and susutaining are the two largest hazards districts run into. Often when a district selects a series or begins an intervenion program it is spearheaded by the present staff... when 1 or more move on, it isn't sustained for various reasons... most often, becuase the "pusher" has left! UGGGGGG!
Lenny VerMaas:Many parents realize the importance of reading to their children. They don't realize the value of pointing out all of the places where math is used. A trip in my car is always a math problem for the grandkids. What is the speed limit? If I go 5 mph faster how fast will I be going?
JaLena:agree, Lenny!
Deb Wragge:Great grandparenting, Lenny. Simple applications to everyday life. Simple..... OR is it?
Denise:Can my boys come on a trip with you?? They both love math but have parents are shy away from it!
Lenny VerMaas:I have heard many times that parents say that I can not do math but have not heard that they can not read.
JaLena:didn't you know that Math ability is genetic????
Deb Romanek:Denise -- You just gave a testimony why it is key to get the parents and teachers working together to do those simple activities throught the day.
Lori Poppe:WHAT WAS YOUR IMPRESSION OF THE 5 UNIVERSAL MATH SCREENERS DESCRIBED IN THE BOOK: TEMA-3, AIMSWEB, NUMBER KNOWLEDGE TEST, EARLY MATHEMATICS SCREENER IN THE WORKS BY ROLAND GOOD & RUTH KAMINSKI?
Denise:Agreed!
Deb Wragge:I have downloaded the materials from EASYCBM particularly the October 2011 Norms. Are you interested in seeing thoses?
Lenny VerMaas:I think the math gene is one that everyone has but some supress it to a greater extent. :)
Denise:I have some schools that use AIMSWeb but they have not been using the data
JaLena:the number knowledge test was new to me. I would like to do a comparison research on the 5
Deb Wragge:Are you surprised, Denise?
Lenny VerMaas:I liked the idea of an early screener like they have in reading but it does not seem to be avaible for math yet.
Lenny VerMaas:At the NWEA regional meeting Dan indicated that they are working on some RTI materials for math.
Deb Wragge:Until TIME for looking at the data is allocated and honored, I am afraid the erading data will take the lead.
Denise:Before schools get gung-ho and buy a new tool...I would like to give them solid information (norms, etc.) It is difficult to wait but I would rather have them collect quality data that they can analyze and use effectively
JaLena:I have not looked at MAP in the early grades for math. Dan Henderson mentioned at the Data Conference that it could be used for RTI purposes.
Kate:I agree Denise.
Deb Romanek:I have not looked at the screens closer. It is more difficult in math because of so many concepts versus reading with is a more process across grades.
Denise:I am concerned that NWEA is advertising itself for more than it is...how can one test be researched and used for a screener, NRT etc.
Deb Wragge:Yesterday, Barb F and I were getting ready for the Title IIA Needs Assmnt on the 11th. With 2 years of data in Reading.... it needs more help. The math look far stronger. I am concerned districts will continue to focus on math and only attend to the most serve Maath cases.
Lori Poppe:One problem with a couple screeners in the book, is that they don't have benchmarks...schools would be at a loss as to knowing how their students are doing nationally.
guest:I agree with Denise - I don't think NWEA is there at this time.
Deb Wragge:Guy.... EasyCBM does as of Oct 2011
Deb Wragge:Guys
Deb Wragge:Fall Winter and Spring
Deb Wragge:Grades K-8
Deb Wragge:It's free and a place to begin.
Denise:I need to check it out.
Lori Poppe:The What Works Clearinghouse does have a "table" that compares Math Screeners. Not all of the screeners in this books were on it but I will find the web address for you to check it out.
guest:We have districts using both AimsWeb and Easy CBM - none are using the data well yet, however.
Deb Wragge:Wait... wait... maybe the work with Erica Lemke will point us in a direction.... is it advetised on the flyer
Deb Wragge:The problem is we have schools that want or need this NOW
Deb Wragge:And... school which want or need to ignore this need.
Deb Romanek:I think what JaLena suggested earlier about trying to look at the 5 listed is a idea to consider. I could see if I could put together a group to do that.
Deb Wragge:Great idea...
Lori Poppe:I too am hoping that Erica can point us in the direction of "the best so far" universal Math screener as that is the starting point in using data, planning interventions, etc.
Lori Poppe:That would be fabulous, Deb R!
Deb Wragge:Who would like to be a part of Deb R's search team?
Lori Poppe:What burning questions still remain?
Lenny VerMaas:One advantage of beginning the RTI process will be the ability to share what different schools are doing and how it is working.
Deb Romanek:I would like to know what knowledge Erica has with all the screeners to give the best picture of the posssiblilities
Deb Wragge:Deb R I can pass Erica's email to you to help you begin that conversation.
JaLena:networking is vital in the success and promotion of anything new.
Denise:I attended her training last fall and I know she was involved in field testing and editing the new math screeners that will be coming out authored by the DIBELS folks
Deb Romanek:Just like a broader knowledge of all the screeeners than one promoted over another.
Denise:good point!
Deb Wragge:Right... about knowledge of all
Deb Wragge:We have so much to learn, process and anchor...
Lori Poppe:I had thought about starting a comparison chart for the Universal Screeners however, the What Works Clearing House already has one so I think going to that site to take a gander is also a great idea.
Deb Wragge:So, all what do you think our next steps should be?
JaLena:Lori, I will definitely look at the website. I took a look at it a while back, but will refresh my memory.
Carol Jessen:I am pleased to get Deb R.'s voice in the room! :)
Deb Wragge:Lori, will you post this conversation to the wiki? Or would you like me to?
Lori Poppe:My thought is that if everyone takes a closer look at the screeners described in the book, Deb R. starts a committee to look at screeners, continue with Chapter 3, and attend Erica's workshop this fall. Any other suggestions?
JaLena:I just want to read this material and discuss. The next steps, in my opinion, will be determined by Erica
Deb Romanek:Does it make sense to get small group together to analyze the screeeners listed and start with the chart Lori pointed out?
Deb Wragge:yes
JaLena:I would be willing to work with you Deb R.....as always :)
Lori Poppe:Deb W. if you wouldn't mind posting that would be great especially since we had tech difficulty today. Thanks a ton!!!
Deb Wragge:I am available, too.
Deb Wragge:I will post, Lori.
Deb Wragge:Is 3 to work with Deb R enough?
Lori Poppe:Deb W. I will email the chat history to you in case you don't have access to do it.
Deb Wragge:k
Deb Romanek: Okay, I am I correct Deb W and JaLena are willing to help me with the screener reviews?
Lori Poppe:Anything else? Thanks for attending, everyone!
Deb Wragge:Thank you, Lori for leading this chat!
Deb Wragge:Yes
Kate:Happy Easter everyone!! :)
Lenny VerMaas:Enjoyed the opportunity to share.
Lori Poppe:You're welome. Sorry for the confusion as I was Deb P. then myself as Deb got things working for us. :)
Denise:Thanks! Good discussion.
JaLena:Yes, Deb R and Deb W. Let me know how I can help. Happy Easter everyone!
Deb Wragge:Great break all!
Date: March 6, 2012 Facilitator: Deb Wragge, Facilitator Discussion: Chapter 1 - The RTI Process in Elementary Mathematics Next Facilitator: Lori Poppe Next Date: April 3, 2012; 9:30 CT, 8:30 MT Next Discussion: Chapter 2 - Tier 1 Mathematics Instruction: A Critical Component of RTI Note: This document is also available as a share document in Google Docs.
NOTE: Once you access the document, and you see the colored boxes in the upper right corner, click on them to expand who is up and in the conversation. We will communicate via the chat box at the bottom, plus, typing just as I am. The only bad part about using the chat box, is if we want to save info from that source, we have to copy it into this document. Please respond in the chat box of your presences. Deb
Please indicate attendance by “checking” or “x”ing behind your name.
Name
Present
Name
Present
Amy Hill, ESU 1
x
Gloria Christiansen, ESU 8
x
Joelene Dredge, ESU 2
Amy Schultz, ESU 9
Jeff Hallstrom, ESU 2
Denise O'Brien, ESU 10
Debbie Schraeder, ESU 3
Kate Hatch, ESU 11
Janet Foss, ESU 3
Kim Elder, ESU 13
Annette Weise, ESU 4
Kathy Vandamme, ESU 13
Suzanne Whisler, ESU 5
Deb Paulman, ESU 16
Lenny VerMaas, ESU 6
x
Lori Poppe, ESU 16
x
Deb Wragge, ESU 7
x
Deb Romanek, NDE
JaLena Slack, ESU 8
Rose Dymacek, NDE
Carol Jessen, ESU 8
x
Deb Hericks, ESUCC
Marilyn Wiebelhaus, OACS
When thinking about Mathematics and the student populations/districts/buildings you encounter, what is the state of “urgency” to implement RTI? What factor or factors provide evidence? How might ESUs prepare/implement services/support?
Are there any districts/buildings in your ESU, etc. where RTI strategies are being implemented? If so, to what depth and breadth are they occurring?
After reading the text, are you comfortable with the five foundational principles of the RTI process? Why, or why not?
Are you, or have you, become acquainted with a/any Universal Mathematics Screeners? If so, what Mathematics Screeners are you familiar with, or are aware are being used in your districts/buildings?
Thinking about your professional reading/conversations, how “ready” do you believe your districts/buildings are prepared to implement RTI in mathematics?
me: Good Morning All! lannpoppe: Hello there, Deb W! :) cjessen has opened the document. gchristi has opened the document. me: I see Amy, Carol, Gloria, Lori. I feek like the "Romper Room" lady.... Oh, my, am I old or what???? We will be a small and might group, today. many of our group had prior commitments. cjessen: Hi Deb, Will you be copying the info into from the chat box to the document? me: I can... and will... yet remember, this is an interactive doc, and you have the rights to do so, too. This may be it for this round... I am sure those who can will be joining as soon as they can. ahill: Hi Deb and everyone! Are we chatting here or in google plus? me: Here, Amy. Maybe next time in Google+ ahill: Ok great! me: So... what were your general impressions of the reading? We can all type at the same time... No special method If you had to rate your understanding of RTI... from 1-10 where are you? ahill: I felt it really aligned with what has been occurring with RtI in reading me: I would agree... Reading really has a leg up Reading has the experience math islacking cjessen: I was affirmed that beginning with RtI in reading has the support of the authors lannpoppe: Overall, the Math framework is very similar to Reading. With Reading there are the Big 5 Ideas of Early Literacy & in Math they emphasize 10. me: Amy, Do you have any tips or pitfalls we can avoid or steer around? ahill: I rate myself an 8+ - only because of my involvement with reading. Still have a lot to learn with math. cjessen: Also that it is just becoming time for RtI for Math----so we so NOT behind me: Right, Carol do you think Bender & crane offer a strong enough foundation? ahill: I think a school really needs to have a strong commitment from all teachers and administrators that will be involved. otherwise RtI efforts will not be effective gchristi: This is my first real depth investigation with RTI, so I'm rating myself 4 or 5. I like the school improvement link. me: Right, Lori... 10 How do you think our districts will respond to this? cjessen: Amy---how does Math RtI integrate with MAP? me: strong SIP link ... plus, the link to other supplemental programs such as Titel I ahill: MAP definitely could be one of the data sources to help make decisions. MAP is not a universal screener and does not have progress monitoring, so it is not appropriate to use in that manner. me: Yes, Amy... what about the MAP connection. ahill: I should clarify - it is not a recognized universal screener by NDE for the purpose of sped verification cjessen: Do you believe this could change? me: Also. have any of you looked at EasyCBM? It is up and operating now. Took the Needs Assessment revision team through last week. Looks promising. they were excited. ahill: I do not. It is an adaptive test - and does not have progress monitoring. me: So what are SPED id's using... EasyCBM has benchmarks for fall, mid, & Spring Computer or pencil paper available Hi Deb ahill: For reading the only recognized universal screeners/progress monitoring is AIMSweb and DIBELS. Not sure about math. The entire state focus seems to be on reading at this time. me: EasyCBM is a University of Oregon math answer to DIBELS ahill: I know AIMSweb has a math component, and DIBELS has been developing math for a number of years. Not sure when DIBELS math may be available. me: here is the website: http://easycbm.com/ Amy, AIMSweb has a math screener, too, Right? ahill: yes Aimsweb also includes math cjessen: It would be good for schools using DIBELS to be consistent with using EasyCBM ???? lannpoppe: Most of my schools have switched from Aimsweb to DIBELS so I can't see them changing again once they begin RtI for Math. How about your schools? ahill: I think Easy CBM could be used Most ESU 1 schools are using AIMSweb cjessen: Is EasyCBM ready for use? lannpoppe: Do ESU 1 schools use DIBELS Next probes or AIMSweb probes with the AIMSweb data warehouse? ahill: I don't know of any of my schools that have started looking at RtI math. most are still trying to get it firmly in place in reading and/or behavior They use AIMSweb gchristi: Could someone define "probes" for me? ahill: with more schools being below proficient on the state math test - that may cause some of them to really start looking at math soon. probes are short "tests" gchristi: Thanks... me: Yes, Carol EasyCBM is ready for use cjessen: How do we get the training? me: There isn't ANY training at this time It is all there for us to use on the web. I registered for an account to gain access, and then began to "play" to be able to share with that team. They have experience with DIBELS, and quickly transferred their experience. lannpoppe: I only had one principal ask for RtI Math but they are in their 2nd year of RtI Reading and have a long way to go. Deb P. hasn't had requests specifically for RtI Math but schools with low Math scores are asking for help. me: many to most of the Title I programs in our districts only offer REading services. I am sure it is similar in your districts How did your districts fair in the first application of NeSA-M? We gather data on strongest and weakest and plan to do so again this fall. gathered I can send you a template or put it in the resources of the wiki... or even share here in google docs lannpoppe: That would be great, Deb W. ahill: I looked at the pricing for PD for Easy CBM - a full day for 40 people is $2750 - a webinar option is $200. I think schools that already use DIBELS or AIMSweb can easily make the transfer once they are familiar with the system. me: We used "garage dots" at a Prins Cluster mtg to have them post. I am using these meager results to manage summer offerings two year's data will help Thanks for looking, Amy. I agree with your observation of transfer. I am thinking though that those of us who have no REading experience feel lacking. How about the rest of you? lannpoppe: Something I noticed in this book is that there is little to no mention of the involvement of Title 1. In the section called co-teaching only SPED teachers and para mentioned. In other areas Math coaches were mentioned. In RtI Reading, Title 1 teachers are heavily involved in the intervention process. me: Yes, Mamam ahill: I thought our districts did better than anticipated on the NeSA-M. Most certainly a number have a long ways to go yet, but after hearing how difficult the test may be - I was pleasantly surprised. me: They are considered to be Tier I intervention. If the Needs Assessment process is used correctly, they are a Tier II ahill: I would agree that Title Reading is heavily involved, so it would seem that Title math should be as well. me: I will post the revisions we made to ESU 7 Title I Coop needs assessments. We used the NE Standards as a guide, and asked the question... Would a student not having mastered this content or skill need supplementary services. Tier I in Bender & Crane Do any of you have tools you have developed? When you read question 5, where do you think your districts are in this? Or do you think the "roll out" with Erica will stimulate the urgency? Hello......?? ahill: I think districts that have RtI reading would be more ready to begin math than districts that have not begun RtI cjessen: I think schools with low math NeSA scores or ones that are looking at a new Core will be our most interested schools. me: I have an idea.... What if this group today, each create an easyCBM account and explore and familiarize ourselves with the tool. Then, share next month findings as a part of Lori's lead discussion? ahill: I think the "ranking" of NeSA-M scores will help create the urgency and being placed on the "list". Erica will be a nice way to convey to schools that we are working on ways to help them improve. cjessen: I think Erica's presentation will stimulate interest lannpoppe: A couple of my RtI Reading schools might be ready for RtI Math but most have a lot of work yet with getting their process down for Reading. me: That's another thing.... Math does not have a process for selecting a new CORE and Templating existing cores What about that? ahill: I agree with Lori that there is still a lot of work to be done by schools with RtI reading me: Can this be templated from the Reading experience. ahill: It would be nice to have a solid textbook review tool and process me: Yes I have to agree.... the waters may be muddied if we get too deep into this with math.... yet, it has to begin sometime in the near future ahill: I've overhead schools asking other districts what math text they use, and whether they "like" it. Not a real solid process for making a text selection! me: There really isn't a solid tool for math.... I have been exploring this, and everything out there now, is so combursome cjessen: so we believe the beginning is to get familiar with the progress monitoring tool? Whoops---screening! me: Liking, like Amy says... ISN'T enough... Allows the text to become the curriculum. ahill: I think there will be districts ready to begin doing something with math me: right, I think we have to begin with screening and data analysis of present NRT & state tests The more we know about the screen process, I believe we can guide this process through the analysis of the current data schools have. this all connects to STEM, too cjessen: That makes sense to me Deb W. me: So, can we agree to do those two things: screening tools and data analysis? ahill: I did find the recommendations on page 12-13 by the NMAP interesting me: Plus, continue the book study and gather other information from the other texts and experiences? Good, Amy ahill: I hadn't realized the importance of fractions to problem solving! me: Big TIME!!! And most teachers admit they don't get to fractions!!!! Ugh! Also, numbers and number systems in primary grades as a gateway to addition, subtraction, ect. ect. etc ahill: and the emphasis on automaticity. I think teachers have gone away from timed tests, having students know math facts automatically, but the authors stressed how important that is for lower grades cjessen: Can we get specific directions on our wiki for what to do for "homework"? Also the generous offer of Deb to share her template. me: Yes, and there are some strategies for effective computation timed tests Sure... Your homework for next time is Chap 2 of B & C, get an account on easyCBM and explore/familiarize for further conversation, Look at the docs Deb W will post on the wiki and in a shared folder of Google docs cjessen: Thanks! :) me: Do any of you use Dropbox? ahill: I use dropbox cjessen: I could me: It is a free space we can upload to that can be shared as well. dropbox.com lannpoppe: I have dropbox...only used it once. :) me: I will post there as well and share with the group. ahill: Thanks Deb! cjessen: I would like to see everything on the wiki....one spot for everything. Less confusing for me. me: Thank you all for your participation. I will copy this conversation and post it to this doc. OK... all to the wiki. We are comfortable using it and I do not mind managing. Agreed! cjessen: Thanks Deb for your pioneer facilitating on Google Chat. :) ahill: Agreed - thanks Deb!! gchristi: Thanks for your leadership everyone.......especially Deb W. jdredge has opened the document. jdredge has left. me: I think it went rather well. Great feedback. Not auditory feedback. :-) my pleasure. Couldn't do it without the team! You rock as well!!! cjessen: Have a great day! me: Have a good rest of the day! thank yo for participating. bye cjessen: Bye all. gchristi: bye
Date: July 24, 2012
Facilitator: Deb Wragge
Chapter 5 & 6 : RtI Procedures in Elementary Mathematics
Next Facilitator: Annette Weise
Next Discussion: July 2, 2012 9:30am Central Time
July 24, 2012 –
Chapters 5 & 6 –
We were a small, but mighty group for the final discussion of the Bender & Crane text. I was a common theme throughout the conversation that these chapters help valuable tools and guides for training and implementing mathematics RTI processes. We also believe that until the Dr. Erica Lemke sessions, we can move no further forward, as we believe her presentations will provide direction for the next steps in our statewide implementation.
Facilitator: Denise O'Brien
Chapter 4: RtI Procedures in Elementary Mathematics
Next Facilitator: Annette Weise
Next Discussion: July 2, 2012 9:30am Central Time
1. Accelerated Math, Success Maker Math, and Math Media are three computer-based curricula discussed in Chapter 4. How familiar are you with these programs?
2. Recommendations for computer-based curricula?
3. Are any of your schools using DIBELS Math?
4. Case Study about Thomas on pages 92-102. Are typical elementary classroom teachers prepared to identify the knowledge and skills students are lacking in mathematics? Are they prepared to administer Tier 2 interventions? (Pg. 94-95)
5. In many school districts, paraprofessionals are administering Tier 2 interventions. What is your experience with para’s and intervention?
6. Do software-based programs “take teachers out of the equation”?
7. Are students more or less focused during software-based instruction?
8. What is a mathematical “choke point”? What can teachers/schools do to help students move past their “choking point”?
9. Are schools in your ESUs combining SAT and RtI Teams into one or keeping them separate? Do you see a movement to combine them? Are schools moving toward utilizing RtI for Special Education Verification?
ESU 4 far down the road;
ESU 10 working on problem solving guide for school districts
Other thoughts:
Date: May 1, 2012
Facilitator: Denise O'Brien (Questions provided by Deb Paulman)
Chapter 3 Procedures for Number Sense and Early Mathematics Skills
Next Facilitator: Denise O'Brien
Next Discussion: June 4, 2012 9:30am Central Time via Distance Learning
Discussion Questions
1. There is LOTS of discussion about the differences between Reading and Math relative to the RtI process. What are the similarities and differences in RtI for Reading and Mathematics?
Similarities: Three Tiered system, intervening early, all students receive Tier 1 instruction, screening process, Tier 2 interventions are typically anywhere from 2-5 days per week (20-30 minutes long), Tier 3 more intense, maintain core class, progress monitoring
Differences: Percentages far different in math (i.e. Tier 1 80% goal; closer to 50% in math in regards to core curriculum meeting the needs of all students) interventions not as well developed in math, more difficult to identify a universal screener, MAP fall?
NWEA MAP will be rated in regards to a universal screener; Skills Pointer more of a diagnostic- scaffolding; Math for Primary main difference is it is given orally, it would be great if we could assign assessments better
Math support staff is lacking compared to reading; when reading started maybe in the same boat; now have reading coaches
2. It might be worth the time for the group to collaboratively define number sense, particularly if it is seen as the indicator of later success in mathematics.
Neuroscience vs. Mathematics Educators
Kids are born hardwired- basic numeration and math skills, math have isolated where math skills happen;
Does it make a difference the experiences of a child? According to the text it can.
Lenny shows the grandkids where math is in everyday, McDonalds- How much does it cost? Speed limit signs
All parents realize the importance of reading to kids but not counting objects etc.
Number sense- as students get older the definition gets broader; it is hard to define it but teachers know when students don’t have it.
Both basic numeration and early mathematics skills are included in the research as indicators of number sense.
3. How do the screeners/progress monitoring tools that we have talked about in previous discussions reflect the Mathematics Readiness Skills found in Table 3.2? (This may be more of a researchable as opposed to a discussable question.)
Hopefully Erika can give us more information on this
Still in limbo
NWEA?
Chapter 4
4. Is anyone familiar with any of the Mathematics curricula mentioned (Early Learning in Mathematics, Number Worlds, Math Recovery). What can you share regarding these programs?
Not familiar with these programs; Envision, Saxon, Everyday math, Math Expressions (Lincoln and Omaha)
Math Expressions and Saxon have more research about them than the others
5. Bender suggests that computerized interventions are going to be important for Tier 3 interventions (p. 80-83). What computerized mathematics readiness and early mathematics curriculum are “out there” and available to schools?
IXL Math, Ascend Math, Accelerated Math, A Plus,
Aleks- Spanish and English (Kathy liked this for middle school students) adaptive in the beginning; pre-assessment 15% of items correct in the level- stay at that level; used for enrichment and remediation, $35-$40 per student student license
Do the Math- Marilyn Burns intervention (not computer based)
ESU 3 has some districts that are using this
Foundational skills Tiered to help build foundational skills
SAMS- Millard uses for reading and math
PALS Math- Kathy has it and has previewed it; partners up the kids and provides structures for them to work together
V-Math (voyager) addresses motivational issues; games and competitions
6. How do documents for tracking student progression in RtI reading compare to the form suggested by Bender p. 68 (competed form p. 71-75) for mathematics?
Reading documentation varies by school district; school districts can create their own documentation forms; all unique to the school district
Some interventions have their own documentation sheets
DIBELS booklets- something like this for math would be great; information plus graphs Form may be cumbersome for classroom teachers if completing for many students; checklist may be more useful
intervention logs
7. Chapter 3 mentions multiple ways to ensure instructional fidelity (p78-79). How can instructional fidelity be determined? How is it determined in Reading RtI?
Core instruction- comfort level of the text/program; College prep not a lot of math instruction
ESU 3 pilot project using Envision Math with 2 districts; communication piece important
Who is doing the professional development?
Suggestion to let them teach from new materials for a couple of months then introduce the new features
Saxon does not have online support that some of the other programs have; nice to have the online support aligned to what you are doing
Is math as prescribed as reading? Saxon math is; Everyday Math a mixture of direct instruction and inquiry
Not as scripted
About comfort level- let them become more with math; if not comfortable it will become more about memorization; then can’t adapt
Professional development- if teachers knew how to teach it would make a huge difference
Instructional concerns; are you engaging kids; using formative assessment
8. The Reading RtI process has seemed fairly rigid (to me). Chapter 3 discusses flexibility in the Math RtI process (i.e. student movement between Tiers 1-3). How important is flexibility in the RtI process?
Fidelity- when you have too much flexibility you can lose fidelity; balance is important
Not just a gut feeling; need data and documentation to back it up; decision rules established
PLCs teachers getting together; important component of professional development of teachers
Fellow teacher says it- more likely the other teacher will implement change
Smaller schools may struggle with this more; collaborate across grade levels
8 Essential Elements for Reading- ESU 4 has created a checklist for schools to help give them guidance in Reading; can be adapted for math (Suzanne will share)
Carol read papers from Math grant and found them heartwarming; Lenny’s efforts are to be commended; these teachers have a network and will stay connected
Elementary math teachers not is tightly grouped- need to work on creating this network
Elementary teachers not as isolated; many of the high schools they may be the only math teacher
Schools are not providing the time for teachers to meet and network; need leaders that say this is important; can the ESU lens help support and push this initiative;
never build collective expertise in your buildings without making time for the conversations.
Goes back to fidelity- depends on administration (need to be in the classroom)
Envision created a one page cheat sheet to see implementation (Debbie has this)
9. General education teachers will implement Tier 1 and 2 instruction. Bender, suggests that Tier 3 interventions will require some type of additional support…mathematics coach, computerized instruction…How do you see Nebraska schools managing this additional support?
10. What is the role of RtI in diagnosing a learning disability?
Date: April 5, 2012
Facilitator: Lori Poppe, Facilitator
Discussion: Chapter 2 - Tier 1 Mathematics Instruction: A Critical Component of RTI
Next Facilitator: Deb Paulman
Next Date: May 1, 2012; Face-to-Face during/after SDA in Kearney - Location TBD
Next Discussion: Chapter 3 - RTI Procedures for Number Sense and Early Mathematics Skills
Note: This document is also available as a share document in Google Docs.From: lpoppe@esu16.org
Date: April 5, 2012 9:34:22 AM MDT
To: lpoppe@esu16.org
Subject: Adobe Connect - Chat Transcript from ESU RtI Math Chapter 2
Reply-To: lpoppe@esu16.org
Deb Romanek:Hello Deb P and Lenny
Lenny VerMaas:Good morning.
Deb Wragge:Good Morning All! :-)
Kate:Hey everyone!!! :)
Denise:Happy Friday everyone!
Kate:WooHoo!!!
Denise:Well, we get Friday off...I hope you all do too!
Deb Paulman:Hey there
Deb Paulman:We are getting our illustrious leader connected...her computer is arguing with her
Deb Wragge:Us, too Yahoo!!!!
Deb Paulman:Good morning, All! My computer is not cooperating so I'm using Deb's right now. Here we go!
Deb Wragge:Lots of meat in this chapter, huh?
Deb Paulman:What are your thoughts regarding the 2008 NMAP's report suggesting the employment of specialized Math instructors for elem. classroom instruction?
Denise:I think that is ideal but financially I don't think our districts can pull it off.
Deb Wragge:I believe it is a direction math instruction needs to go, yet I am concerned about districts dedicating the dollars to "another" content specialist in the elem "World." Not a traditional take even though REading has found some success.
Denise:Have any of your schools had their middle school and/or high school math content specialists work with elementary teachers?
Lenny VerMaas: I think that you may see more departmentalization of mathematics a lower grades.
Deb Wragge:None in ESU 7
Kate:Not that I know of. I think the elementary teachers are afraid to ask for assistance.
Deb Paulman:It's interesting in comparison to Reading Coaches...as they usually provide more of the interventions and less classroom instruction. How about your schools?
Deb Wragge:My first teaching position as a 3rd grade teacher had Rdg and Math instruction with each of the two track building taking each one content. I really liked that!
JaLena:One of ESU 8 districts has a Math Coach from the MS/HS level.
Deb Wragge:madison?
Kate:Does the coach come in an co-teach or does the coach work with the teachers during planning?
JaLena:He has taught a class, worked with grade level teachers, and been a curriculum resource.
Deb Romanek:UNL program is preparing teachers but I am afraid I agree with Denise that our state is not willing to pay for the expertise. I see several coaches applying for out of state positions.
Lenny VerMaas:Having an elementary teacher that enjoys helping students learn mathematics would be a good start rather than having someone from the high school come down. I do know that Lincoln has a math coach at some levels.
Deb Paulman:I think it's set up differently at each school for Reading. Most of our small schools are not blessed with Reading coaches...
JaLena:Is there such a program in any of our colleges that particularly relates to curriculum coaching??
Deb Wragge:So, does PD such as NMPDS at both levels become a NE Answer as coaches. Yet, how do we encourage those participants they have those skills and content knowledge?
Deb Romanek:No college program that I am aware of.
Denise:In what elementary grade do the majority of your schools start departmentalizing in math?
Deb Paulman:UNL is doing their research projects regarding Nebraska rural schools gettting distance learning from instructional coaches in Reading and Science...Project Readers for Reading and CSI for Science.
Deb Paulman:I will put the website up for Project Readers on our wikki.
Kate:Departmentalizing isn't consistent either. Some of mine start in grades 4, some in 5/6.
Deb Wragge:It depends on the population as to when departmentalization begins. Most not until upper elementary or into MS
Deb Paulman:Some of mine start in third grade and up.
Deb Wragge:My experience was at 3rd
Denise:I think finding the right teachers with a positive "math mindset" is key to quality math instruction. Maybe by departmentalizing earlier there would be some better results? Just a thought.. any research on this??
Lenny VerMaas:I am not aware of a program or endorsement. It would seem that gaining a wide range of background and strategies.
Deb Paulman:WHAT TEXTBOOK SELECTION MATERIALS DO YOU USE TO HELP YOUR ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS CHOOSE NEW MATH MATERIALS SO THEY ARE BOTH TEACHER-DIRECTED EXPLICIT INSTRUCTION AND INQUIRY-BASED?
Deb Wragge:The UNL Primary Math Class... does that offer a possible avenue to coaches.... or most of those being grown for LPS?
Kate:Are any of your elementary schools implementing RtI for math?
Lenny VerMaas:My window to display the chat is limited. Is there a way to increase the size.
Deb Wragge:none in 7
Denise:None that I know of in 10
Lenny VerMaas:none that I know of in 6
Deb Paulman:LENNY, WE ARE WORKING ON IT...HAVING TECH. DIFFICULTIES...SORRY!
Deb Wragge:Resently I had 3 Title I teachers in to revise the Needs Assessment for TArgeted Schools.
Deb Wragge:They are the nearest ESU 7 has to any assistance in Math
Denise:Lenny, I thought the inquiry vs. direct instruction was interesting. Do math books typically include both?
Deb Romanek:The work for RTI has been focused on reading with the UNL Consortuim.
Deb Wragge:But, I took them to the EasyCBM site and walked them through it. There are Norms now available. Available since October 2011. They were excited!
Kate:Deb-are they planning to move to math, do you know?
Lenny VerMaas: I have not had a lot work with K-4 teachers and programs so don't know the set up of the textbooks. My wife taught 2nd grade wo that helps.
Deb Wragge:NO... Are too busy seating Reading... I am told from Barb F. who is working with our school in the UNL Consortium
Deb Paulman:WHAT DID EVERYONE THINK OF THE EASYCBM SITE...K-8 ASSESSMENTS, SCORING, DATA ENTRY, REPORTS, ETC.?
Deb Romanek:There has not been any discussion at this time but need to visit with the group. KEEPING IN MIND -- MATH IS DIFFERENT THAN READING
Deb Wragge:Well, people.... That is why this group has formed. The NE focus is on rdg, and it has to broaden.
Deb Wragge:Yes! Math is different!
Lenny VerMaas:There is also the difference between developing automaticity and the understanding of mathematics and it s concepts.
Deb Wragge:I am in the throws of preparing a training on writing in math using marilyn Burns' book. Lenny, she says the VERY same thin you just did! Yeah you!!!
Deb Wragge:thing
Deb Paulman:I know one complaint of elem. teachers & Math cores, is that many of them do not provide enough built in practice and review.
Denise:What are some first steps in helping elementary teachers with math instruction? I know we had some participate in the elementary math grant but that is all ESU 10 has offered in the past 3 years.
JaLena:math is a content area in which supplements are a necessity
JaLena:math instruction or math knowledge......can't have one without the other?
Lenny VerMaas:My knowledge of RTI is very limited and only what I have picked up from Jen with reading. I do like the emphasis on mathetics and using data.
Deb Wragge:Knowing the why of math is far important. Yes they need automoticity, but that often gets in the way of application in the real world... I beleive that is one way we lose students... bogged down in the rote.
Denise:Agreed! I only have experience from having a 1st and a 3rd grader this year. Wow there are a lot of worksheets for math! Timed math facts..etc.
Lenny VerMaas:Students need to have both and in some ways they are indpendent and separate from each other. They both need to built, developed and nutured.
Deb Wragge:That is where the screener (univerasl) and progress monitoring offers the window into student achievement. I also believe journaling or logging by students of their understanding is an importandt piece
Deb Romanek:Practice is good but doing it with different representations of a concept by ALL elementary teachers in the Tier I would limit the number of students needing interventions at any level.
Deb Paulman:THE BOOK SUGGESTED THAT EVERYDAY MATHEMATICS BY WRIGHT GROUP/MCGRAW-HILL HAS ADEQUATE OVERALL RESEARCH SUPPORT? YOUR THOUGHTS OR EXPERIENCES WITH THIS CORE?
Deb Wragge:Deb... I agree with you. I was interested to Learn that Everyday Math was the only truly research-based series
JaLena:Everyday Math, from my experience, is labor intensive, but produces results if the teacher is dedicated. However, supplements will also be needed.
Lenny VerMaas:Getting good core instruction to reduce the number of students going into tier 2
Denise:Grand Island Public uses it. My dear friend Marcia, thought it had pros and cons. Pros students were better at problem solving, cons students were lacking basic facts
Deb Wragge:I have a couple districts selected series for nxt fall implementation. Everyday was a part of their series looks, but both choose Saxon for the spiral practice.
Kate:Quite a few of my districts use Saxon for the spiral practice as well.
Deb Paulman:FYI: DEB PAULMAN IS REALLY LORI POPPE...COMPUTER PROBLEMS...
Lenny VerMaas:The ability to talk about math and have students explain thier thinking is so important.
Kate:I haven't had a chance to look at the EasyCBM site. Deb-what did you think?
Deb Paulman:HOW DO THE 10 EXPLICIT TACTICS DESCRIBED IN THE BOOK COMPARE WITH JALENA'S MATH PARTNERSHIP PROJECT?
guest:Tri County had Everyday math and they found the same pros and cons that Denise mentioned. They also found that over time, as staff turned over, they had great difficulty in keeping them trained in the program - and that is very important as it is taught differently. (This is Annette Weise, by the way - I was the only one who took the direction to log in as guest literally - sorry).
Deb Wragge:Teacher in elem are experiencing direct instruction in reading and seeing results slowly.... I don't think the group wants to be tied down to direct instruction because they are not sure how much fredom of instruction they want to relinquish again. Yet, they want help????
Denise:Tell me more about your project Jalena...
Deb Wragge:Love these changes in size... a real mathematical problem in action~!!! :-)
guest:Tri County chose new math for this year and went with Saxon as well. They are much happier - but it doesn't do as good of a job with problem solving - they are trying to supplement that.
Deb Romanek:Everyday math is solid but as pointed out the program must be done as designed which requires professional development for the entire staff and when new teachers come on board. It is easier to supplement basic fact practice than problem solving.
Deb Wragge:See that is where I see the 10 tactics coming into play. Basically, there is going to have to be PD in Math instruction.... AND district are GOING to have to send their people!
Lenny VerMaas:The spiral review of Saxon is an easy answer. Teachers comfortable with math make it better. Teachers not comfortable with math still teach memorization rather than understanding.
JaLena:The elementary project focuses on content knowledge, content understanding and content application. Participants network and develop effective classroom strategies for their grade levels.
Lori Poppe:We have this PD problem in Reading once schools adopt a new core. Many companies send a salesperson instead of a TRAINER to do PD for new cores.
Deb Paulman:Just keep your eye on the moving chat window!
Deb Wragge:That is where the Writing in Math of Marilyn Burns comes in as far is teacher and student depth of understanding.
Denise:JaLena, is this project just with schools in your area?
Lori Poppe:Jalena, what do you think of the 10 tactics from the book?
Deb Wragge:Right Lori... companies DON'T send the right person... and district don't as the ESU to sit in on the train to learn so further support and relationships of support can take place.
Deb Wragge:There job is to sell... not support
JaLena:The project is at 4 sites across the state. Participants choose their preferred site. All sites receive the same opportunities from Neal and Elliott.
Deb Wragge:ask the ESUs
Deb Wragge:Is this beyond the Elem Academy?
Lori Poppe:I did do a joint RtI/Reading Street core training for a school with a trainer from the company by request of the principal. It went really well. I made sure the trainer presented on items I knew the teachers needed to move further with RtI, etc.
JaLena:I was familiar with the 10 tactics. I had used several in my upper elementary classes.
JaLena:Using a variety is great....because upper elementary students need variety, but clarity.
JaLena:Differentiation is vital to success for all students. If RTI is to be success, in any content area, teachers must be able to differentiate. This is my opinion.
Lenny VerMaas:Chapter two confirmed that RTI is about good teaching and getting good core instruction. Provide variety of strategies, movement, etc.
Deb Romanek:The 10 tactics are good listing and the Family math nights were promoted during the Elementary Academy last year.
Lori Poppe:For Reading RtI I have had to really dig into their new cores to find the components teachers need as some companies do not point out important elements like instructional routines!
Deb Wragge:Lenny, I was pleased to see in the 10 Tactics many of the them had been introed to the MS/HS NMPDS participants
Deb Paulman:I have to say I was kind of disappointed with the 10 tactics. They seem very vague and about as far removed from direct instruction as can get. They are examples of good instruction/lesson design. Not very helpful in terms of targeting individual student understanding of math content
Deb Romanek:The tactics also reinrforce the instructional strategies that work for all content that teachers need more support in math.
Lenny VerMaas:The importance of vocabulary was a nice emphasis with the vocbaulary cards. Also the value of choice and student ownership of learning.
guest:Yes, the fact that companies don't have great trainers is exactly the issue Tri County ran into - they couldn't get trainers to come in to work with their new staff and new staff cannot implement Everyday Math without proper training. Not due to lack of effort for training staff, but rather a lack of proper trainers -their program imploded.
Lori Poppe:I was surprised with the 10 tactics but that may be because my former district used Saxon Math.
Deb Wragge:In the ESU 7 Title I Coop we have districts who specifically target Parent Nights more toward the math than reading.
Deb Paulman:reading seems very targeted and specific in their instructional interventions...that's where the 10 tactics felt fairly vague and general
JaLena:As with any curriculum, Saxon needs supplements or enhancements. This is not to say that it is weak....
Lori Poppe:I'm sure Math with be very similar to Reading when it comes to matching student skill deficiets to interventions. Using the universal screener and matching those skills to specific interventions is the key.
Deb Wragge:Imploding and susutaining are the two largest hazards districts run into. Often when a district selects a series or begins an intervenion program it is spearheaded by the present staff... when 1 or more move on, it isn't sustained for various reasons... most often, becuase the "pusher" has left! UGGGGGG!
Lenny VerMaas:Many parents realize the importance of reading to their children. They don't realize the value of pointing out all of the places where math is used. A trip in my car is always a math problem for the grandkids. What is the speed limit? If I go 5 mph faster how fast will I be going?
JaLena:agree, Lenny!
Deb Wragge:Great grandparenting, Lenny. Simple applications to everyday life. Simple..... OR is it?
Denise:Can my boys come on a trip with you?? They both love math but have parents are shy away from it!
Lenny VerMaas:I have heard many times that parents say that I can not do math but have not heard that they can not read.
JaLena:didn't you know that Math ability is genetic????
Deb Romanek:Denise -- You just gave a testimony why it is key to get the parents and teachers working together to do those simple activities throught the day.
Lori Poppe:WHAT WAS YOUR IMPRESSION OF THE 5 UNIVERSAL MATH SCREENERS DESCRIBED IN THE BOOK: TEMA-3, AIMSWEB, NUMBER KNOWLEDGE TEST, EARLY MATHEMATICS SCREENER IN THE WORKS BY ROLAND GOOD & RUTH KAMINSKI?
Denise:Agreed!
Deb Wragge:I have downloaded the materials from EASYCBM particularly the October 2011 Norms. Are you interested in seeing thoses?
Lenny VerMaas:I think the math gene is one that everyone has but some supress it to a greater extent. :)
Denise:I have some schools that use AIMSWeb but they have not been using the data
JaLena:the number knowledge test was new to me. I would like to do a comparison research on the 5
Deb Wragge:Are you surprised, Denise?
Lenny VerMaas:I liked the idea of an early screener like they have in reading but it does not seem to be avaible for math yet.
Lenny VerMaas:At the NWEA regional meeting Dan indicated that they are working on some RTI materials for math.
Deb Wragge:Until TIME for looking at the data is allocated and honored, I am afraid the erading data will take the lead.
Denise:Before schools get gung-ho and buy a new tool...I would like to give them solid information (norms, etc.) It is difficult to wait but I would rather have them collect quality data that they can analyze and use effectively
JaLena:I have not looked at MAP in the early grades for math. Dan Henderson mentioned at the Data Conference that it could be used for RTI purposes.
Kate:I agree Denise.
Deb Romanek:I have not looked at the screens closer. It is more difficult in math because of so many concepts versus reading with is a more process across grades.
Denise:I am concerned that NWEA is advertising itself for more than it is...how can one test be researched and used for a screener, NRT etc.
Deb Wragge:Yesterday, Barb F and I were getting ready for the Title IIA Needs Assmnt on the 11th. With 2 years of data in Reading.... it needs more help. The math look far stronger. I am concerned districts will continue to focus on math and only attend to the most serve Maath cases.
Lori Poppe:One problem with a couple screeners in the book, is that they don't have benchmarks...schools would be at a loss as to knowing how their students are doing nationally.
guest:I agree with Denise - I don't think NWEA is there at this time.
Deb Wragge:Guy.... EasyCBM does as of Oct 2011
Deb Wragge:Guys
Deb Wragge:Fall Winter and Spring
Deb Wragge:Grades K-8
Deb Wragge:It's free and a place to begin.
Denise:I need to check it out.
Lori Poppe:The What Works Clearinghouse does have a "table" that compares Math Screeners. Not all of the screeners in this books were on it but I will find the web address for you to check it out.
guest:We have districts using both AimsWeb and Easy CBM - none are using the data well yet, however.
Deb Wragge:Wait... wait... maybe the work with Erica Lemke will point us in a direction.... is it advetised on the flyer
Deb Wragge:The problem is we have schools that want or need this NOW
Deb Wragge:And... school which want or need to ignore this need.
Deb Romanek:I think what JaLena suggested earlier about trying to look at the 5 listed is a idea to consider. I could see if I could put together a group to do that.
Deb Wragge:Great idea...
Lori Poppe:I too am hoping that Erica can point us in the direction of "the best so far" universal Math screener as that is the starting point in using data, planning interventions, etc.
Lori Poppe:That would be fabulous, Deb R!
Deb Wragge:Who would like to be a part of Deb R's search team?
Lori Poppe:What burning questions still remain?
Lenny VerMaas:One advantage of beginning the RTI process will be the ability to share what different schools are doing and how it is working.
Deb Romanek:I would like to know what knowledge Erica has with all the screeners to give the best picture of the posssiblilities
Deb Wragge:Deb R I can pass Erica's email to you to help you begin that conversation.
JaLena:networking is vital in the success and promotion of anything new.
Denise:I attended her training last fall and I know she was involved in field testing and editing the new math screeners that will be coming out authored by the DIBELS folks
Deb Romanek:Just like a broader knowledge of all the screeeners than one promoted over another.
Denise:good point!
Deb Wragge:Right... about knowledge of all
Deb Wragge:We have so much to learn, process and anchor...
Lori Poppe:I had thought about starting a comparison chart for the Universal Screeners however, the What Works Clearing House already has one so I think going to that site to take a gander is also a great idea.
Deb Wragge:So, all what do you think our next steps should be?
JaLena:Lori, I will definitely look at the website. I took a look at it a while back, but will refresh my memory.
Carol Jessen:I am pleased to get Deb R.'s voice in the room! :)
Deb Wragge:Lori, will you post this conversation to the wiki? Or would you like me to?
Lori Poppe:My thought is that if everyone takes a closer look at the screeners described in the book, Deb R. starts a committee to look at screeners, continue with Chapter 3, and attend Erica's workshop this fall. Any other suggestions?
JaLena:I just want to read this material and discuss. The next steps, in my opinion, will be determined by Erica
Deb Romanek:Does it make sense to get small group together to analyze the screeeners listed and start with the chart Lori pointed out?
Deb Wragge:yes
JaLena:I would be willing to work with you Deb R.....as always :)
Lori Poppe:Deb W. if you wouldn't mind posting that would be great especially since we had tech difficulty today. Thanks a ton!!!
Deb Wragge:I am available, too.
Deb Wragge:I will post, Lori.
Deb Wragge:Is 3 to work with Deb R enough?
Lori Poppe:Deb W. I will email the chat history to you in case you don't have access to do it.
Deb Wragge:k
Deb Romanek: Okay, I am I correct Deb W and JaLena are willing to help me with the screener reviews?
Lori Poppe:Anything else? Thanks for attending, everyone!
Deb Wragge:Thank you, Lori for leading this chat!
Deb Wragge:Yes
Kate:Happy Easter everyone!! :)
Lenny VerMaas:Enjoyed the opportunity to share.
Lori Poppe:You're welome. Sorry for the confusion as I was Deb P. then myself as Deb got things working for us. :)
Denise:Thanks! Good discussion.
JaLena:Yes, Deb R and Deb W. Let me know how I can help. Happy Easter everyone!
Deb Wragge:Great break all!
Date: March 6, 2012
Facilitator: Deb Wragge, Facilitator
Discussion: Chapter 1 - The RTI Process in Elementary Mathematics
Next Facilitator: Lori Poppe
Next Date: April 3, 2012; 9:30 CT, 8:30 MT
Next Discussion: Chapter 2 - Tier 1 Mathematics Instruction: A Critical Component of RTI
Note: This document is also available as a share document in Google Docs.
NOTE: Once you access the document, and you see the colored boxes in the upper right corner, click on them to expand who is up and in the conversation. We will communicate via the chat box at the bottom, plus, typing just as I am. The only bad part about using the chat box, is if we want to save info from that source, we have to copy it into this document. Please respond in the chat box of your presences.
Deb
Please indicate attendance by “checking” or “x”ing behind your name.
me: Good Morning All!
lannpoppe: Hello there, Deb W! :)
cjessen has opened the document.
gchristi has opened the document.
me: I see Amy, Carol, Gloria, Lori. I feek like the "Romper Room" lady.... Oh, my, am I old or what????
We will be a small and might group, today. many of our group had prior commitments.
cjessen: Hi Deb,
Will you be copying the info into from the chat box to the document?
me: I can... and will... yet remember, this is an interactive doc, and you have the rights to do so, too.
This may be it for this round... I am sure those who can will be joining as soon as they can.
ahill: Hi Deb and everyone!
Are we chatting here or in google plus?
me: Here, Amy.
Maybe next time in Google+
ahill: Ok great!
me: So... what were your general impressions of the reading?
We can all type at the same time... No special method
If you had to rate your understanding of RTI... from 1-10 where are you?
ahill: I felt it really aligned with what has been occurring with RtI in reading
me: I would agree... Reading really has a leg up
Reading has the experience math islacking
cjessen: I was affirmed that beginning with RtI in reading has the support of the authors
lannpoppe: Overall, the Math framework is very similar to Reading. With Reading there are the Big 5 Ideas of Early Literacy & in Math they emphasize 10.
me: Amy, Do you have any tips or pitfalls we can avoid or steer around?
ahill: I rate myself an 8+ - only because of my involvement with reading. Still have a lot to learn with math.
cjessen: Also that it is just becoming time for RtI for Math----so we so NOT behind
me: Right, Carol
do you think Bender & crane offer a strong enough foundation?
ahill: I think a school really needs to have a strong commitment from all teachers and administrators that will be involved. otherwise RtI efforts will not be effective
gchristi: This is my first real depth investigation with RTI, so I'm rating myself 4 or 5. I like the school improvement link.
me: Right, Lori... 10 How do you think our districts will respond to this?
cjessen: Amy---how does Math RtI integrate with MAP?
me: strong SIP link ... plus, the link to other supplemental programs such as Titel I
ahill: MAP definitely could be one of the data sources to help make decisions. MAP is not a universal screener and does not have progress monitoring, so it is not appropriate to use in that manner.
me: Yes, Amy... what about the MAP connection.
ahill: I should clarify - it is not a recognized universal screener by NDE for the purpose of sped verification
cjessen: Do you believe this could change?
me: Also. have any of you looked at EasyCBM? It is up and operating now. Took the Needs Assessment revision team through last week. Looks promising. they were excited.
ahill: I do not. It is an adaptive test - and does not have progress monitoring.
me: So what are SPED id's using...
EasyCBM has benchmarks for fall, mid, & Spring
Computer or pencil paper available
Hi Deb
ahill: For reading the only recognized universal screeners/progress monitoring is AIMSweb and DIBELS. Not sure about math. The entire state focus seems to be on reading at this time.
me: EasyCBM is a University of Oregon math answer to DIBELS
ahill: I know AIMSweb has a math component, and DIBELS has been developing math for a number of years.
Not sure when DIBELS math may be available.
me: here is the website: http://easycbm.com/
Amy, AIMSweb has a math screener, too, Right?
ahill: yes Aimsweb also includes math
cjessen: It would be good for schools using DIBELS to be consistent with using EasyCBM ????
lannpoppe: Most of my schools have switched from Aimsweb to DIBELS so I can't see them changing again once they begin RtI for Math. How about your schools?
ahill: I think Easy CBM could be used
Most ESU 1 schools are using AIMSweb
cjessen: Is EasyCBM ready for use?
lannpoppe: Do ESU 1 schools use DIBELS Next probes or AIMSweb probes with the AIMSweb data warehouse?
ahill: I don't know of any of my schools that have started looking at RtI math. most are still trying to get it firmly in place in reading and/or behavior
They use AIMSweb
gchristi: Could someone define "probes" for me?
ahill: with more schools being below proficient on the state math test - that may cause some of them to really start looking at math soon.
probes are short "tests"
gchristi: Thanks...
me: Yes, Carol EasyCBM is ready for use
cjessen: How do we get the training?
me: There isn't ANY training at this time
It is all there for us to use on the web. I registered for an account to gain access, and then began to "play" to be able to share with that team. They have experience with DIBELS, and quickly transferred their experience.
lannpoppe: I only had one principal ask for RtI Math but they are in their 2nd year of RtI Reading and have a long way to go. Deb P. hasn't had requests specifically for RtI Math but schools with low Math scores are asking for help.
me: many to most of the Title I programs in our districts only offer REading services.
I am sure it is similar in your districts
How did your districts fair in the first application of NeSA-M?
We gather data on strongest and weakest and plan to do so again this fall.
gathered
I can send you a template or put it in the resources of the wiki... or even share here in google docs
lannpoppe: That would be great, Deb W.
ahill: I looked at the pricing for PD for Easy CBM - a full day for 40 people is $2750 - a webinar option is $200. I think schools that already use DIBELS or AIMSweb can easily make the transfer once they are familiar with the system.
me: We used "garage dots" at a Prins Cluster mtg to have them post. I am using these meager results to manage summer offerings
two year's data will help
Thanks for looking, Amy.
I agree with your observation of transfer. I am thinking though that those of us who have no REading experience feel lacking. How about the rest of you?
lannpoppe: Something I noticed in this book is that there is little to no mention of the involvement of Title 1. In the section called co-teaching only SPED teachers and para mentioned. In other areas Math coaches were mentioned. In RtI Reading, Title 1 teachers are heavily involved in the intervention process.
me: Yes, Mamam
ahill: I thought our districts did better than anticipated on the NeSA-M. Most certainly a number have a long ways to go yet, but after hearing how difficult the test may be - I was pleasantly surprised.
me: They are considered to be Tier I intervention. If the Needs Assessment process is used correctly, they are a Tier II
ahill: I would agree that Title Reading is heavily involved, so it would seem that Title math should be as well.
me: I will post the revisions we made to ESU 7 Title I Coop needs assessments. We used the NE Standards as a guide, and asked the question... Would a student not having mastered this content or skill need supplementary services.
Tier I in Bender & Crane
Do any of you have tools you have developed?
When you read question 5, where do you think your districts are in this? Or do you think the "roll out" with Erica will stimulate the urgency?
Hello......??
ahill: I think districts that have RtI reading would be more ready to begin math than districts that have not begun RtI
cjessen: I think schools with low math NeSA scores or ones that are looking at a new Core will be our most interested schools.
me: I have an idea.... What if this group today, each create an easyCBM account and explore and familiarize ourselves with the tool. Then, share next month findings as a part of Lori's lead discussion?
ahill: I think the "ranking" of NeSA-M scores will help create the urgency and being placed on the "list". Erica will be a nice way to convey to schools that we are working on ways to help them improve.
cjessen: I think Erica's presentation will stimulate interest
lannpoppe: A couple of my RtI Reading schools might be ready for RtI Math but most have a lot of work yet with getting their process down for Reading.
me: That's another thing.... Math does not have a process for selecting a new CORE and Templating existing cores What about that?
ahill: I agree with Lori that there is still a lot of work to be done by schools with RtI reading
me: Can this be templated from the Reading experience.
ahill: It would be nice to have a solid textbook review tool and process
me: Yes I have to agree.... the waters may be muddied if we get too deep into this with math.... yet, it has to begin sometime in the near future
ahill: I've overhead schools asking other districts what math text they use, and whether they "like" it. Not a real solid process for making a text selection!
me: There really isn't a solid tool for math.... I have been exploring this, and everything out there now, is so combursome
cjessen: so we believe the beginning is to get familiar with the progress monitoring tool?
Whoops---screening!
me: Liking, like Amy says... ISN'T enough... Allows the text to become the curriculum.
ahill: I think there will be districts ready to begin doing something with math
me: right, I think we have to begin with screening and data analysis of present NRT & state tests
The more we know about the screen process, I believe we can guide this process through the analysis of the current data schools have. this all connects to STEM, too
cjessen: That makes sense to me Deb W.
me: So, can we agree to do those two things: screening tools and data analysis?
ahill: I did find the recommendations on page 12-13 by the NMAP interesting
me: Plus, continue the book study and gather other information from the other texts and experiences?
Good, Amy
ahill: I hadn't realized the importance of fractions to problem solving!
me: Big TIME!!!
And most teachers admit they don't get to fractions!!!! Ugh!
Also, numbers and number systems in primary grades as a gateway to addition, subtraction, ect.
ect.
etc
ahill: and the emphasis on automaticity. I think teachers have gone away from timed tests, having students know math facts automatically, but the authors stressed how important that is for lower grades
cjessen: Can we get specific directions on our wiki for what to do for "homework"? Also the generous offer of Deb to share her template.
me: Yes, and there are some strategies for effective computation timed tests
Sure... Your homework for next time is Chap 2 of B & C, get an account on easyCBM and explore/familiarize for further conversation, Look at the docs Deb W will post on the wiki and in a shared folder of Google docs
cjessen: Thanks! :)
me: Do any of you use Dropbox?
ahill: I use dropbox
cjessen: I could
me: It is a free space we can upload to that can be shared as well.
dropbox.com
lannpoppe: I have dropbox...only used it once. :)
me: I will post there as well and share with the group.
ahill: Thanks Deb!
cjessen: I would like to see everything on the wiki....one spot for everything. Less confusing for me.
me: Thank you all for your participation. I will copy this conversation and post it to this doc.
OK... all to the wiki. We are comfortable using it and I do not mind managing. Agreed!
cjessen: Thanks Deb for your pioneer facilitating on Google Chat.
:)
ahill: Agreed - thanks Deb!!
gchristi: Thanks for your leadership everyone.......especially Deb W.
jdredge has opened the document.
jdredge has left.
me: I think it went rather well. Great feedback. Not auditory feedback. :-)
my pleasure. Couldn't do it without the team! You rock as well!!!
cjessen: Have a great day!
me: Have a good rest of the day! thank yo for participating.
bye
cjessen: Bye all.
gchristi: bye
Date: July 24, 2012
Facilitator: Deb Wragge
Chapter 5 & 6 : RtI Procedures in Elementary Mathematics
Next Facilitator: Annette Weise
Next Discussion: July 2, 2012 9:30am Central Time
July 24, 2012 –
Chapters 5 & 6 –
We were a small, but mighty group for the final discussion of the Bender & Crane text. I was a common theme throughout the conversation that these chapters help valuable tools and guides for training and implementing mathematics RTI processes. We also believe that until the Dr. Erica Lemke sessions, we can move no further forward, as we believe her presentations will provide direction for the next steps in our statewide implementation.